Google

Read the new book all about Team Fortress 2 trading and the TF2 Spreadsheet.

Tuesday, August 21, 2012

Integrity of the spreadsheet

Unfortunately we've had to address these types of accusations before.  Running a site like this, it comes with the territory.  However, this time things have taken a pointed tone.  It seems that a particular reddit user has been monitoring my accounts trying to catch us doing misdeeds via this little spreadsheet.  He has done his digging for seemingly a long time and posted his attack on our credibility.  He found that we've bumped our own threads on Steam user forums via alternate accounts, said nice things about our own site, and not been so nice to a previously competing site.

However, the proof he offers up that we are the devil-incarnate and are only out for our own gain (ignoring that we've given away over 70 Keys and Tour of Duty tickets combined in the past 3 months alone) is that we purchased an item before the sheet was updated and profited 2 keys the next day.

Here's what occurred: we were gathering pricing information, particularly the botkiller weapons.  There were no prices updated at that point on the sheet.  A particular user appeared to be quickselling his botkiller medi gun at a low price of 8 keys, as opposed to the 10 to 14 keys on average (up to a buds) everyone else was asking.  We bought this item for 8 keys.  Updated all prices to the ranges we found (10-14 keys).  The next day, we re-updated the prices to their current (9-10 keys) number and sold it for 10 keys.

Look.  Only the reddit poster truly knows his motivations.  We update this site daily, spend money to keep it running and upgrade it, hold contests where we give away 90% of our items.  I trade not for profit but to keep current on what's going on, I check our contributors prices against multiple sources.  We view his accusations as illogical but wanted to let you know about them since we don't want this to be just a reddit witch-hunt.  Questions and comments welcome, positive or negative but keep it PG.

Update: We exchanged some calls and emails about this.  Going forward no one associated with this site will trade any newly released items before there is a price in the guide.  Bad form on my part, no malice intended but I understand why it was not the right thing to do.  Rare or glitch items, low craft #'s, unusuals, are exempt.

Update to the update: I will no longer be trading.  We believe it is a better policy.  My contributors will continue as discussed above but we agreed with our Steam API trade analysis software running it isn't necessary for me to trade anymore.  Lurking however, is still fair game.

Hindsight is 20/20:  This accuser stacked what he presented as "evidence" without the bulk of asking prices for the item which were much higher, cherry-picked one trade we did out of thousands he witnessed, mis-stated the timing of events, and never answered questions about his own reason for being disgruntled nor his  affiliations.  Reddit labeled my accounts as "scammer", likely retribution for pointing out the inexperience of their own redditor's defunct pricing site.  Meanwhile, I've stopped trading and we've continued giving away many dozen keys, tickets, hats, and more.  We use Steam API trade-scanning software, as well as our contributors, to provide the most accurate pricing available.


64 comments:

  1. That is just despicable, I mean, manipulating the spreadsheet to make profits is one thing, but I have absolutely no problem if there was an item which was rising in price and you went out and stocked on that item before the sheet is updated. That's called resourcefulness and I've tried to predict trends and make quite a nice profit from predicting price rises.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I think the price of Strange Festive Scattergun Isn't 1 - 1.5 bud. It's 1.5 Firm

    ReplyDelete
  3. There are 2 things I would like to ask:
    1. How did the idea that spreadsheet is one of the most "true" sites for TF2 item prices even begin? I mean, someone needs to have started it and spread it, or else no one would believe you. And once a small crowd of people starts to get bigger, it isn't unusual for other people to join it, thus making the leader of the group the maker of truth. Now it's a circle: A person uses the spreadsheet because the rest of the crowd uses it. And every person in the rest of the crowd uses the spreadsheet because every person in the rest of the crowd uses it. Now how did you manage to make this entire cycle start?
    2. How is it possible for me, as part of the crowd, to know that you, as the leaders, are not using your powers only for your own good?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Fair questions: 1. We've been doing what was once just a raw Google spreadsheet since late 2010. I took over the editing and people just kept viewing it to the point that it hit a limit and Google would kick people to a generic sheet instead of the full version. Around Spring of '11 I recruited a few more friends as pricers and we have our current team (more or less) of contributors. The popularity is something that mushroomed and we decided to add a blog to the sheet in August of last year. Since then we have grown steadily with visitors.

      2. Actions speak louder than words on a screen. I think we've made our case as far as being open to criticism, hard work, and giving back.

      Delete
  4. Why do you even justify this guy with any kind of response? I hear traders all the time trying to shoot down the spread sheet, in an attempt justify their ridiculous asking prices.

    I cannot imagine how much time you guys put into the spread sheet every day. It's an extremely invaluable resource, that gives us something to fall back on for price checks, to make sure we aren't getting ripped off. If some reedit user doesn't agree with the spread sheet prices, he is more than welcome to make his own spread sheet.

    Prices change quickly, and new items are added all the time. I don't know all the items on the spread sheet, and no one person (certainly not me) is able keep up with the prices.

    Anyhow, I am going to say what I keep on repeating, thank you all for making this great resource. I visit it on a daily basis (even before the giveaway contests) and it has helped me immeasurably. Keep up the good work, and don't feed the trolls.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for your kind words. We felt we had to respond to this due to the lengths this guy went to stalk my accounts and post his 'evidence' in a long and dramatic format - all the while his basic claim is we profited $3 and we're jerks for it.

      Delete
    2. You profited $3?!? You bloody rascal!
      But seriously, reddit users are reddit users, nothing more (because I'm keeping this comment PG).

      Delete
    3. I agree with Zanshin, the spreadsheet really is an invaluable resource. I just wish that people didn't treat it like a bible. The spreadsheet is great for getting an idea of what an item is worth, and for some reason people think that the prices are the be all and end all of trading. I wish that you could make it clear that the Prices are "suggestions," and not exactly what what you need to pay and any other price makes you a sharker or scammer. It also bothers me that if you ever pay above spreadsheet price people think you're an idiot. Validating that this is only to get an idea of what the items are worth would be nice.

      Delete
  5. i am still going to believe tf2 spreadsheet, as you said guys, you guys take this seriously

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why don't you stop being a sheep and use it as a guide rather than selling things at the prices they state. Item's are only worth what people are willing to pay / sell them for, if you really like an item but the spreadsheet gives it a low price does that mean you can only sell it at that low price? No, of course not. Use it only as a rough guide rather than a tf2 traders religion.

      Delete
    2. We don't want anyone to take prices we put up as religion. Everything has a value that is in a range - never absolute.

      Delete
  6. "Look. Only the reddit poster truly knows his motivations. We update this site daily, spend money to keep it running and upgrade it"

    Bullshit, you don't. The hosting is free. The spreadsheet is free. What do you do, other than sit on your arse, browse the web, play TF2, and occasionally update the spreadsheet?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Developers aren't free. Contributors time isn't free, nor is mine.

      Delete
    2. Again, I invite demanrisu to create his own spreadsheet, update at least daily. Then he can let us know how free it is.

      Delete
  7. I'd love to believe you, but its hard. Something tells me I'll never understand why keys/bills/buds prices were raised. notably buds, which I swear used to cost 10 keys and are now 20+.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Buds are traded often and are very liquid. We report the actual buds trades.

      Delete
  8. You have no need to "justify" yourself against this reddit user. You've done nothing wrong, and posting this long explanation only gives the redditer the reaction he wants. Everyone knows the Spreadsheet is just a guide and the price does variant a little depending on person to person.

    Keep up the good work though.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks and we get where you're coming from but this guy seriously stalked us trying to dig up anything he could. I don't like flight, I choose to fight.

      Delete
  9. Read that tractate. In short - it's ridiculous how much effort can one invest in proving that someone is wrong :/
    3$ profit from new exclusive item trade, price of which changes daily? HERETIC HE MANIPULATED THE PRICE!
    Guys, just do your work and pay no attention to this. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Its funny, I'm selling 2 mad milks at the moment for 1 rec each because people still want them for the new scout weapon, I got 3 users attacking my thread on outpost.
    When they started saying they already got the scout weapon for 2 scrap it made me laugh, why would they be looking for mad milk if they had that weapon?
    When I showed your sheet price they attacked the sheet too.
    People who say the sheet is wrong are just cry babies who don't get their own way and the Reddit user is no different.

    Can I just say, none of my friends thought I could get Archimedes for 6 keys (this was last night before it went to 7 minimum.) But I proved them wrong using your sheet.
    Thank you. :D

    ReplyDelete
  11. I'll still keep coming here every day. :) This just strengthens the fact that you guys are a dominant and reliable source for everyone that deals with TF2 trades.

    ReplyDelete
  12. this sheet has saved me alot of bad trades, and gave me alot of good trades, that is why i will never betray spreadsheet, but you know guys, you should put up prices that are uncraftable, like deus specs, you need to put up uncraft prices, but other than that, awesome work

    ReplyDelete
  13. I've been using this spreadsheet since it first went public, and being the owner of a Fair Trading group with nearly 300 people in it, I'm glad to say I've never really seen any bias/evil-intentions involved in the pricing of items listed here. Of course, the community will always have its speculations, but I'm still a strong believer in this spreadsheet. Whoever the admin of this is, I do have a couple recommendations for you. Build a well-thought out case against his claims, or supporting him on whatever is true (be honest about mistakes in the past, etc.); contact the admin of SteamRep and that reddit poster and have a trial. It's important to recognize also that you don't have much time to respond. There's already some big names posting on reddit and in my opinion, ya gotta respond fast and thoroughly. Best of luck man, still supportcha!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for your note. Case has been made, spent enough time going through this. Admitted error, rightfully and time to move on.

      Delete
  14. 1) Prices for botkiller weapons are highly unstable atm and using the spreadsheet as set in stone prices for them without checking out trade servers and the steam forums is retarded. If the item was a few months old and still had wide price fluctuations on the spreadsheet, then I'd be concerned about it's integrity.

    2) lol, reddit user. Need I say more?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1) yes, these have really sunk. new prices just uploaded.

      2) I used to be a reddit fan! addictive but something doesn't taste too good anymore.

      Delete
  15. by the way tour of duty tickets are now being sold for 1.3-1.6 refined metal

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We've seen prices steady at 2 ref and just above. Sometimes a discount for key buyers but not 1.3 to 1.6 yet.

      Delete
    2. I just wonder, why do they cost so much, I mean, you are over paying by 33 cents - 1.00. I don't get it lol

      Delete
  16. oh forgot to mention. honestly i like this site and i don't know why anyone would want to take it down. and the "they do it for themselves" is total bs. you guys have given us way more than we should be giving you. thank you for all this and i hope this rumour doesnt spread too much.

    ReplyDelete
  17. This may be the wrong place.. but I'm very confused about the actual price of Tour of Duty tickets, as compared to what it says on the spread sheet. I actually drew up a little something making sense of it. ( http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg7/scaled.php?server=7&filename=56622006.png&res=landing ) Some explanation as to why it is set to that would be appreciated. I just think its dumb that people can buy something for .99 cents and effectively sell it for 2.59. Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Therouge I see the logic in your picture however, new items have a logic all their own sometimes (and keys are often priced at their grey-market price which is currently around $1.30 per key).

      Delete
  18. A lot of people aren't grateful for the work you do for us. A lot of redditors I know have hated this spreadsheet mainly because it makes it harder for them to shark people. It used to be that "people pay what they think the item is worth to them" and then this site came along and made it more fair for everyone. So a lot of redditors were just waiting for a moment to pounce on you and this gave them the perfect opportunity. As everyone else has pointed out... new items are very unstable in prices and that alone shows that you are not to blame. The fact that the whole argument is over 2 keys and yet they think you would do that is just a terrible attempt to put down your credibility.

    Although I think a lot of them are starting to believe you more after you decided to visit that thread. Otherwise, I am sure they would have done anything they could to take you down. Also reddit sometimes gets nasty and just downvotes everyone even without clear evidence. Keep in mind that not everyone on reddit or from the tf2 community believes his argument and so we will still be here supporting you... so don't give up on us because this thing is great!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We get that sentiment and that's just how it is.

      We dropped the ball on this one so when someone stalking us pounced I suppose its fair game. We're changing things up on our part so this won't happen again.

      Delete
  19. In my opinion, what you do helps a majority of the traders on TF2. I for one, have to check the prices of hats quite often, and your spreadsheet is the very first thing I go to. I believe these are fair prices, and most of the time, the price changes are in very small amounts. The fact that botkiller weapons would slowly decrease in price also makes sense, due to the fact that there will be a steadily increasing amount of them in existence. I'll take this opportunity for telling you what a great job you and your team are doing for the community, from the actual spreadsheet itself, to the key and ticket giveaways that you do. What the redditor did was outrageous and stupid, and you have every right to call him out for it. Thanks for your time and effort.

    ReplyDelete
  20. I think it is retarded that these kinds of questions are raised in the first place.

    The idea of a "guide" is just that...a general rule but "Value" is based on what I want to pay. The price of any item whether virtual or real is whatever a person is willing to pay for said item. I have things I don't want to sell, but for the right price I would but that price might be far above "market value" because it is not for sale. In other cases I give away items for next to nothing to someone who really wants it because that item has no meaning to me and the way I play. Knowing the "price guide" helps me not waste my time when trading and gives me a starting point for common ground but in the end, I decide what an item is worth.

    You are doing a great and thorough job and though I can't speak for others, I appreciate the time and effort that you put into maintaining this for the entire community, even if a few may be ungrateful. Like the old saying goes, "No good deed goes unpunished"

    ReplyDelete
  21. I think you should open yourselves up. Post what accounts you use and who you are. This cloak and dagger stuff will only hurt you in the long run. People want to know who is making the prices. You accept the credit you might wanna accept the blame face on.

    ReplyDelete
  22. What do you guys spend money on? Your spreadsheet is hosted on googles docs servers, and Blogspot accounts are free. And you earn money via Adsense. This site is completely free, all you do is spend time maintaining it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Developer time, maintenance and upgrades. True Google has free service but there's more going on behind the scene.

      Delete
  23. I support the spreadsheet whole heartedly! When I was new to the TF2 economy the spreadsheet saved my butt more times than I care to remember. Now as a seasoned trader (Still haven't gotten and Unusual. But hey I'm not the only one) I both love and hate the spreadsheet. Its a wonderful tool but no one likes to see their investments lose value. All in all you have to take the good with the bad and live with the fact that the spreadsheet has become an important part of what makes TF2 the wonderful experience it is. Reddit be damned. The Profit or Bust mentality of TF2's cut-throat *at times* economy is what makes life interesting. I don't mind that you guys make alittle profit on the side, its what the rest of us are doing for god sakes. Now I would prefer to imagine your only in this for the community, and for about 99% of the time you are. I'm not sure we can really ask for more. The measures you have taken to adress the reddit community's assult on your credability only makes me all the more willing to continue to use your site. Thanks for making a great product.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I support you guys :) As a redditor, this is truly an embarassment to us over at reddit :/ Thanks to you guys, I am now profiting more than I used to before I saw you guys' site. Thanks, and keep doing what you guys see best! :D

    ReplyDelete
  25. I'm echoing many of the above sentiments in that I think your site has done a great service in at least helping inform traders on the general price each of the hundreds of different items. Although I certainly don't use it as a "trading bible" and don't think your prices are always right, (ex. Keys being 2.5-2.55 instead of 2.55-2.66) that may well be a result of anecdotal experiences I've had stemming from which sites I choose and which deals I take. People need to understand this - both those who use the spreadsheet as a firm price and those who use it as a starting point and always sell above it/buy below it. The spreadsheet was not the cause of that person quickselling their botkiller weapon to you, and it was not why the items suddenly dropped in price.

    That being said, just as the Redditor doubts the integrity of the spreadsheet, I doubt the integrity of his or her "investigation." The fact that he/she claims to have your personal information but won't divulge it shows that they clearly have some personal quarrel with you, not just your spreadsheet.

    In any case, even taking all their evidence at face value, I don't believe this warrants a SteamRep tag whatsoever. Botkiller weapons had such a fluid price and were coming onto the market at such a rapid speed that it doesn't take a genius/insider trader to realize to sell high before the spreadsheet updates. That's just common sense.

    Keep up the good work. Enough traders trust (and count on) price guides like this to know that regardless of the implications of this so-called exposé, it's done much less harm than good.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree with everything stated above, couldn't have said it any better.

      Delete
  26. When an item is first released, prices are all over the place.
    Just because one person sells it for 8 keys doesn't mean others will.
    Your prices are fine but I wonder one thing.

    Where are you getting your prices for keys?
    Everyone on outpost keeps selling higher then the sheet..what makes the key prices drop?

    ReplyDelete
  27. What is 2 keys? really the street price for them is $1.40. So you made 2.80$ come on guys a big conspiracy over this?? These people take time out of their day to maintain this site for people like us that need a place to go to have an idea what an item is worth. I use this spreadsheet daily and I thank you. I make profit when I can and so should you! Just for your conscience you did nothing wrong. WE ARE NOT ON WALL STREET!
    I LIVE IN AMERICA DO YOU?

    Concerned Citizen

    ReplyDelete
  28. Really appreciate you informed us.
    Keep up the good work, will always support spreadsheet :)

    ReplyDelete
  29. This is just an stupid attack from someone who tought that the spreadsheet prices were too low for the item he was selling and wanted a very inmature and childish payback. I have trusted this site forever and always selling my items for the prices recommended here. I want to point that out again, RECOMMENDED, no one is foricing no one to buy/sell at the prices here.

    My "customers" have being very happy with my trades at spreadsheet prices, no complains. At the end of the day, I just want to get the items and like, and for christ sake. THIS IS JUST A VIDEO GAME, THOSE ARE JUST VIRTUAL ITEMS. If someone think about this like a currency, like easy money, welp, that's their problem. I just like my spreadsheet as it is, in order to get cool items at fair prices and everybody is happy.

    Sometimes people takes the internet way too seriously. And as someone who formerly did work on shit ton of blogs "for free", I know you do spend a lot of money, time and resources in this. Hell, I even run TF2.cl with some friends, we do not get money, but we get tired, we de this with passion because we love this community. Why the heck people can see that.

    Cheers Admin, please keep doing the good work, a lot of people who actually enjoy TF2 are greatful and we thank you for taking your time everyday for us :)

    ReplyDelete
  30. is this the same spreadsheet http://tf2spreadsheet.blogspot.nl/ ?

    ReplyDelete
  31. thats simply stupid, i have used this for prices since i started trading, thse are in my eyes very fair prices. Most of the time i do see prices on the higher end, but i have sen lower too.

    That site has major problems i think.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Lol, Reddit?
    That aside, I believe that people attacking the sheet are wrong. It's just like people who follow the sheet religiously and then attack threads for selling at market price (I'm sure you roam TF2 Outpost, it's really common there).
    It's amazing the lengths that they went to to dig apart your case. Granted, I'm sure you may or may not have abused your power once or twice (I accuse you of nothing, but still, power is power).
    And, as said several times before, if they don't like it, they should create their own sheet.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have a bunch of Strange Rainblowers that say I haven't abused any power I may have. xD

      Seriously though, after a couple days to think about this...I just shouldn't have made that trade. No matter how smart and innocent it was it just looks bad. No matter who the attacker is or which competitor he's affiliated with doesn't matter - I gave him the opening.

      Delete
    2. Someone got butthurt about their favorite hat being too expensive so they rage and attack the economy. That is what happened.

      Delete
  33. The ultimate irony here is that the people who knock the spreadsheet and charge their own prices, base their own prices off the spreadsheet. (E.G. Hat = 1.33 so I will charge .33 more than SS).

    ReplyDelete
  34. Personally, I think that you're prices are a little off occasionally... but that's completely understandable. The problem stems when people started using this sheet as a bible, not as a general guide.

    ReplyDelete
  35. No doubt there are prices that are off. That's why its a fluid marketplace. If you see something off feel free and email us. We check every price out that people warn us about.

    ReplyDelete
  36. You know what, if you are responsible for the spreadsheet then you should not be participating in trading...You should not put yourself in a position where people can accuse you guys of price fixing. This site should be run by people who are separate from the TF2 universe (third party) and have the responsibility of the site management like a job. Afterall, the business of online sites are traffic and ads. Just like your site has, your focus should be to uphold the integrity of the figures and to keep consistent traffic for your revenue stream. You should expect accusations of price manipulation if you are actively trading.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You know what, you're right. See blog post.

      Delete
  37. Alot of attention has been drawn to the, in my opinion, lesser issue of alleged price manipulation.
    However I would like to pursue the primary issue of using alts to discredit previously competing sites and repping your own.
    As far as I can see this allegation has not been denied or confirmed by yourself or anyone on this site, therefore, I appologise if this has been answered and I have overlooked it.
    Can you confirm or deny that alt accounts were used for this purpose, and if so, what steps have been taken to ensure this cannot happen in future
    Great site, Keep up the good work ;)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I did confirm that we pointed out the minimal hours of trading time the redditor's who created the competing site had. A fair point but I should have done it as 'me' and not someone else.

      As far as repping this site, it was done around the same time yes. It won't be done anymore by us.

      Delete
  38. Most people don't like the spreadsheet. Most people want to buy for less than the spreadsheet and sell for higher than the spreadsheet. Next time you see someone like that on tf2outpost or whatever just check their trades. Probably 'quickbuying' something for one price and selling it for twice as much in another.

    Outpost is another gripe. Donators can bump their trades all day so they will most likely be seen before any others. However those players are typically the highballer/lowballers(sharks). You can't say "hey I'm selling this xxxxxx for less on my trades" cause they'll just delete your comment for trade hijacking. There's nothing to keep prices honest on that site.

    That's the issue here: keeping prices honest. Spreadsheet isn't perfect (what is?) and it's no bible that you should go by, but it's a guide line that combats the sharks. When this little fiasco went down lots of people saw it as an opportunity to call their own prices.

    Rant rant rant. Last thing I have to say: fluctuating prices on a brand new item? Must be a scam.

    ReplyDelete
  39. After all that is said and done I think people forget that this page is a "guideline" for pricing and not set in stone. When I first read the complaint I thought it was hilarious anyone would even care if you profited 2 keys,

    I think the spreadsheet is a decent guide for pricing items for trade. People need to take into account item popularity when setting the price on the high end, low end, above and below the listed prices.

    I think it's also good when keeping people on outpost and sometimes tp in check when they crazy inflate their prices.

    ReplyDelete
  40. I think you should add a disclaimer at the top that says "This Spreadsheet is a guideline and the prices below are not set in stone" Thank you

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's why it says "average" price above the value columns. Also, our "key" addresses this in detail. While we think our prices are fairly accurate, it doesn't mean that traders should think of them as set in stone.

      Delete